1. The Power of Pivoting and Diverse Income Streams: Kendra Barnes highlights the importance of flexibility and adaptability in real estate investing, particularly through her experience with short-term rentals as a "band-aid" solution. She emphasizes considering multiple profitability strategies for a property, not just one, to ensure it remains a viable investment under various circumstances.
2. Community and Education in Real Estate Investing: Through her journey, Kendra underscores the value of community support and education in real estate. Starting the Key Resource, she aimed to demystify real estate investing, especially for those who feel isolated or face skepticism from their immediate circles. This community approach helps investors navigate challenges and share solutions.
3. Strategic Investment Based on Goals: Kendra advises setting specific financial goals for real estate investing and choosing properties that align with these objectives. She points out that success in real estate is not about emulating others but about achieving personal financial goals, which can vary greatly depending on the individual's situation and the property location.

0:00:00 - Vikas Gupta

This is the Hacking Real Estate podcast, season two, episode 10.

0:00:50 - Brandon Hall

Welcome to the Hacking Real Estate podcast, where we dive into the stories of seasoned, hands-on and tech-savvy real estate investors. We'll learn the strategies and tools they use to maximize returns and minimize hassle, all while navigating the rapidly changing real estate market. I'm your co-host, brandon Hall, and managing partner of Hall CPA, and I'm sitting alongside my co-host, vikas Gupta, ceo of Azibo. With our combined 15 years of experience in real estate investing and entrepreneurship, we're here to help you up your real estate game. Let's get hacking.

0:01:21 - Vikas Gupta

Hi everyone, Welcome to today's episode of the Hacking Real Estate podcast. Our guest today is Kendra Barnes. Kendra is a full-time real estate investor, founder of the Key Resource and author of Acres. Her real estate investments afforded her the ability to retire from the nine to five life at the age of 32. She then created the Key Resource to inspire and empower and educate people about the power of home ownership and real estate investment. Kendra, welcome to the show.

0:01:54 - Kendra Barnes

Hey there, thank you for having me.

0:01:56 - Vikas Gupta

Thank you for being with us.

0:01:59 - Kendra Barnes

Super excited.

0:02:02 - Vikas Gupta

So, in your own words, tell us about your real estate journey.

0:02:06 - Kendra Barnes

It was very unexpected. I did not grow up dreaming to be a real estate investor. I think a lot of people. I fell into it very randomly, but I was one of those people who I just never liked the nine to five life and this is not nine to five bashing at all. If you love your job, that is amazing. But even when I was in grad school, I just knew what the career field I was going into was not for me, but I felt like I was full steam ahead. We're sold this idea that in order to be successful you got to go to school, get a good job, and I did. I got a good government job as an international economist and I was traveling the world. I was making good money, but I just did not love it.

And one day my husband and I went to a game night and played a game called cash flow. And that is what kind of woke us up to this idea of passive income. Because in order to win the game you have to make passive income, and there's different ways to make passive income, but you can't win cash flow without real estate. So we played the game and then left the game night saying wait a minute in order to win this game, which is like mimicking life, you have to own real estate. Why don't we own rental properties at the time? We only own a house for ourselves, like a primary residence in Washington DC. And then, I would say, three days after playing that game, we were already looking for our first property.

0:03:32 - Vikas Gupta

That's awesome. One of my biggest hobbies is board games and I actually am an amateur board game designer and so hearing that you played a board game and that got you into real estate and things I'm just going to try and make sure this doesn't turn into a board game podcast that's awesome. So three days later, you started looking. Tell us how you started and what that journey is and how you were able to then retire at the age of 32.

0:04:05 - Kendra Barnes

Yeah, we bought our first investment property, which was a duplex in Washington DC, and we just made a bunch of rookie mistakes. This was back in the day, so this was in 2015. So this is back when real estate education was harder to find. Remember those days where you could go to these seminars on the weekends and it was free, and then you get there and they upsell you this like $40,000 package? That was the extent of real estate education it was. There were no podcasts like this, there were no ebooks and courses and coaching and stuff like that, and so we just kind of fumbled our way through it.

We bought a duplex in Washington DC for $228,000. It already had a tenant in one side and it was vacant on the other side, so we thought, okay, we'll buy this, we're already cash flowing. Well, we weren't really cash flow. We were breaking even, basically, and we're like that's cool, we'll renovate the other unit and get it up and running. What happened was, though, we closed on the duplex and then, a week later, the tenant just up and left the intent that we inherited. He just up and left no notice. We went over there, actually, take a picture in front of the property so I could post it on Instagram. And while we, when we arrived, he was like moving his stuff out and we're like, wait a minute, where are you going?

And then we realized we had no idea how to find tenants. We had no idea how to screen tenants. It was like so many we thought we had it in the bag, like, oh, we'll figure that out later. We already have a tenant in place. And we learned really quickly that that can change and you always need a need contingency plan. So we ended up putting that on Airbnb to hurry up and like make money quick. We were making a lot of money and I said, oh my gosh, I'm surpassing my government income right now, monthly, and I want to quit right now, like I wanted to leave my job immediately. My husband was like no, we have to wait. And like save money. And he's very like rational, rational and patient. I'm more impulsive and impatient. But we then bought a four unit property after that and we actually house hacked, which I wish we had known about before, and then we bought three more properties after that. So We've just been like scaling ever since.

0:06:24 - Vikas Gupta

Wow, and were those all in Washington DC?

0:06:27 - Kendra Barnes

Washington, dc, baltimore, and then we bought. We have property in Texas too, so but we started out just in DC and Baltimore.

0:06:36 - Vikas Gupta

In Texas was that out of state investing.

0:06:39 - Kendra Barnes

No, we actually moved to Texas in 2019. Well, actually we lived in, we moved to Fort Worth in 2017 for a year because my husband's job moved him, and then we how did that go? Again? Moved to 2017, of Fort Worth, moved back to DC and then we moved back to Texas in 2019. So, we've been kind of all over the place, but we both retired from our government jobs in 2019.

0:07:08 - Vikas Gupta

No, yeah, that's awesome, congratulations.

0:07:11 - Kendra Barnes

Thank you.

0:07:12 - Vikas Gupta

So it sounds like that the short-term rental was sort of the, the, the band-aid, if you will, on that 10, 8 moving out.

0:07:21 - Kendra Barnes

Yeah, it was a huge lesson learned for me, like I really learned about the power of the pivot. It just so happened that property allowed us to pivot and still be profitable. Why? Right with Airbnb? But not every property is like that. And I tell people all the time when you're analyzing a deal, you cannot just buy a property and say, oh, I'm gonna make 5000 a month on Airbnb, because it may be true, but what happens if Airbnb is no longer an option, because the city that you live in is now Cracking down on Airbnb or because you got some bad reviews and now you can't get bookings? You need to make sure the property is also going to be profitable. On section 8, as a mid-term rental, as a long-term rental, student housing. You know If for me, if the rental property Can not be profitable in at least three different ways, I'm not buying it. And that's just me personally.

0:08:13 - Vikas Gupta

Oh, wow, that's. That's actually the first time I've heard of someone thinking about it that way. So can you tell us a little bit more like in terms of how you're analyzing a deal and what the different Categories are, if you will, that you're looking at?

0:08:25 - Kendra Barnes

Yes, depending on the city. Like, of course, I'm always gonna look at the long-term rental Income for a long-term tenant, which you guys have a like a calculator on your site, right? So I could go to a Zbo and put in the address and it would tell me how much I could make just for a long term, just market rate tenant. But then I'm going on Airbnb and figuring out how much I could make if I had to Airbnb it. I'm gonna look into travel nurse rentals, which I've actually been doing since 2018 and I love it. I think it's my favorite strategy. Honestly, with travel nurse rentals, you're renting to a travel nurse every three months and it's fully furnished, all utilities included, so you only have you only have four tenants a year, versus Airbnb, where you could have I don't know four tenants a week, you know, depending on how you set it up. But so I'm looking at long-term rentals. I'm looking at section eight. I'm looking at midterm rentals like Travel nurse rentals, corporate rentals, military, student housing. Those are like the top five.

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0:10:15 - Vikas Gupta

Is that grouped into the midterms or is that its own category?

0:10:20 - Kendra Barnes

well, it's really a long-term rental, but I'm finding military tenants and, like, I mean your, your, your, excuse me, your rental has to be in a military town, right? And then there are specific sites that you can rent to military tenants through, and also how you price them is gonna be a little differently, a little different because of their housing stipends.

0:10:45 - Vikas Gupta

Okay, can you, can you stay a little more there? Because we've actually never talked about Military rentals and tenants and the nuances around those with any of our guests, so that I think that would be really interesting to dig a little bit more deeper into.

0:10:58 - Kendra Barnes

Yeah, so I'm a military brat and so this is why I think it's like front of mind for me. I think that buying a rental property in a military town is a great idea, because you're always gonna have that like base of renters that are gonna be coming in and out like every couple of years, usually a military, military personnel there. They're, you know, at a base for like two years on average. What's tricky about it is there's like what's called PCS season, where that's when they're moving right from base to base, and it's usually in the summer, and so if you were trying to list a rental in a military town in like February or I don't know, march, you may not get as much traction. So that's kind of like some of the nuance around it. But military renters are really really great, really reliable. They don't mean they have a housing stipend, so you know they're gonna be good for it for the most part and Is there a way to look up that housing stipend the way you can look up section 8?

0:12:04 - Vikas Gupta

compensation.

0:12:06 - Kendra Barnes

Yep, you just Google it and it's the housing stipend is based on their rank, and so it's kind of hard to tell, like what rank person is gonna rent your space. You can kind of guess based on how big your space is. Now this is not a blanket statement, but you would think like usually the lowest ranking person is usually a single person, like they're very new, they're young, so they're gonna want a smaller space. And then typically the higher up you go and rank, they're gonna ask families. And this is not I'm not trying to put everyone in a box, but that's kind of how you could look at it. But you would just Google like military housing stipend, and then it would show you what it is for this year.

0:12:45 - Vikas Gupta

Got it, and is that very by geography?

0:12:48 - Kendra Barnes

That's actually a good question. I Don't know, I don't know.

0:12:53 - Vikas Gupta

Hmm, okay, and then does it work like section 8, where the money comes directly to you, or does it go to the, to the officer or the Enlisted person?

0:13:03 - Kendra Barnes

and they pay you. They pay you, so the military personnel pays you. The military does not pay you.

0:13:09 - Vikas Gupta

Okay, so there's a little bit more risk there than it is with section 8.

0:13:13 - Kendra Barnes

Oh, 100%. Yeah, I mean it's. It's not the military or the government paying you at all, but I Mean they are getting paid for how they're getting a stipend for housing. So but whether or not they're using that money wisely I don't know.

0:13:32 - Vikas Gupta

Any? Are there any nuances to screening Potential military Tenant versus sort of just like the standard things you would go through to screen any tenant?

0:13:47 - Kendra Barnes

No, but one of the things that is kind of like it gives you an assurance about it Is the fact that if something goes awry, I mean you can always go like through their chain of command, like if they're not paying or if you're having issues. I mean they're in the military, so you can easily find and like talk to whoever if it's like a major issue going on. But no, the screening is pretty much the same.

0:14:13 - Vikas Gupta

Have you ever had to escalate in the chain of command?

0:14:17 - Kendra Barnes

No, military tenants are great tenants. They're great travelers tenants too, they are amazing so is your.

0:14:27 - Vikas Gupta

So is your portfolio today concentrated in in Midterms, in military, or are you doing the full range?

0:14:37 - Kendra Barnes

The full range and I've done a little bit of everything, like I've done. Section 8, airbnb, regular long-term tenants, like you name it. I've done a little bit of everything. I'm trying to think what haven't I done? Yeah, I think I've done like a little bit of everything. And I have a Rental in a military town, and well, I guess DC is technically a military town too, so I have rentals there too, but I've done a little bit of everything. I think midterm is my favorite, though I why is midterm your favorite?

You can make a little more money than long term because it's fully furnished, right, and so it's like that premium service that you're making a little more. You're not making as much as Airbnb, but you're not doing as much work as Airbnb because that's a lot of turnover. So it's like that happy medium where you're making more than long term and I love the flexibility of it, like for me, if you think about a long-term tenant, they sign this lease and what if it's just like a bad fit, like what if?

you guys just don't get along. They don't. It's just not a good fit. You're stuck with them. They're stuck with the property. A lot of times when long-term tenants move in, they bring all their stuff. They don't want to move. It's such a hassle. Midterm rentals at Travel Nurse is there for three months.

They have another job waiting on them they have to go to. They're not bringing their stuff. So I just love the flexibility of if they move in, they actually don't like the area, they don't like the property, they don't like me or I don't like that, like we only have a few more months left to go, and personally that's what I love about it.

0:16:06 - Vikas Gupta

Mm-hmm Got it. So, going back to your the original piece of advice you tell people, the advice you give is, when you're analyzing an investment, make sure that it pencils for at least three of these categories that we talked about. And then, if something goes wrong, if if Airbnb becomes illegal or the military happens to move out or whatever it is, then you have some alternatives in which it's still gonna Pay off.

0:16:32 - Kendra Barnes

Yeah, and so your profit margins in each of the three categories is not gonna be the same. But let's say, for instance, you set this minimum amount that you're gonna make per month and be happy, at least be able to make that with the three categories, right, so you might make I don't know $1,000 a month with one and only 800 with the other, but it's still profitable, rather than people who buy a property for Airbnb and and they can't even cover expenses when they have to go section eight, like it just doesn't work. So that's kind of where I am, where I am with it.

0:17:06 - Vikas Gupta

Got it? No, I think that's a great piece of advice and going through those categories was super helpful. Thank you.

0:17:13 - Kendra Barnes

Mm-hmm.

0:17:14 - Vikas Gupta

So what led you to start the key resource?

0:17:18 - Kendra Barnes

Um, so we had just bought our third property we're also our second rental, but third property, right, we had a single family house, duplex and a fourplex and I posted on facebook I didn't have an online brand, I was just sharing with my family and friends like, hey, we just bought this four unit property. I had like the keys and like that stereotypical picture. And within minutes I started getting all these comments and questions from friends and family. People were saying congrats or like that's so awesome.

But then one of my friends DM'd me and she was like, did you, your husband, rob a bank or something? And it was hilarious because, um, she's known me for a while and she knows that I would literally never survive a day in jail, so illegal activity is like off the table for me. I would probably just cease to exist the minute I walked in if I had to go to jail. So but her question was really trying to figure out like, how can you guys afford three properties in Washington DC and when I say DC, I'm not talking about like the suburbs, like actually in Washington DC and within a span of like three years? And so, um, I realized at that moment that there was Some information I need to demystify that.

You could be young and you could be black and you could own more than one property, like it's possible, because my husband and I did not grow up in wealthy families. We both grew up in military families, so just middle class. You know, um, we didn't make a ton of money, but we made like decent money as government employees and I wanted people to know it was possible and I wanted to help show them like how to do it, based on the mistakes I had already made, and so I was like you know what? I don't know everything about real estate investing because I'm only a few years in, but I know more than my peers and so I can like lift as I climb, and so that's how it started.

0:19:06 - Vikas Gupta

And where is it at today?

0:19:07 - Kendra Barnes

Okay. So where the key resource is today is grown. I have a large Instagram community. I have an amazing Facebook group community.

Um, aside from the book that I have written, my Facebook group community is my proudest accomplishment in my business, because we're really just a group of investors who are trying to figure it out and we're helping each other along the way. So what I've seen in that group and just in my business like my coaching clients, people have taken my courses and stuff is that they've gone from like literally not knowing what to do first to messaging me and saying, like, kendra, I'm on my fourth property and they would never have thought of it if they hadn't seen me do it. And so for me, it's not even about the information I teach, because I I do teach, but I think just the representation is like a big piece. It switches something in people's brains saying, oh, if she could do it, then I could do it. And so that's been really powerful for me.

And my husband had mentioned something that I never thought about, because I'm thinking of like, oh, I impacted so and so, like she told me she bought a property, or you know, this couple said they brought two. They bought two properties based off of what information I shared. But he was like you know, you're impacting their family for generations to come, like that property could end up paying for their kids college. That property could get them some financial freedom they could, you know, do xyz. And I'm like, oh my goodness, I hadn't even thought of it like that. Um, real estate is like a cornerstone as far as generational wealth is concerned and it just feels really good to have been able to like empower people in that way.

0:20:41 - Vikas Gupta

Yeah, so I've been a member of the of the facebook group. I haven't posted yet, I've just been working, but but I've seen there's a lot of activity there, um, and a lot of people helping people, which I think is great, because it's not just you know you having to manage 6000 people, but like what? What are the key themes? Like, what are the things that people are typically asking each other the most about?

0:21:00 - Kendra Barnes

A lot of questions about funding, like where to find funding. A lot of questions about scenarios, like I had someone apply for my property like what should I do? Um. A lot of first-time investors who Are about to close or just closed and they're like what do I do first? Like, or what type of um platform do you use for xyz? So I would say a lot of like scenario based questions um people asking about funding and Just looking for general advice. I think it's great to be in a group of people who really get it, and I love that too. Like you said, people are in there helping each other too, so I don't always have to. I try to respond to everything, but I love seeing other people with answers too, because, honestly, I'm a buy-and-hold investor. I've never flipped, I've never wholesaleed a property, I've never bought a tax lien, I've never bought an auction property, so there are things that I haven't done and I cannot speak to. So that's where the group comes in.

0:22:00 - Vikas Gupta

Mm-hmm. On the questions around funding, have you seen that become more of a viewer topic with the interest rate changes?

0:22:09 - Kendra Barnes

Yeah, I think people are a little more hesitant now with the interest rate changes. People are looking for more non-traditional ways to fund properties, like the DSCR loans and things like that, looking into seller financing. And so there's a lot of questions about like how do you, what should I look for, what should I ask when doing seller financing? Or like what are some great lenders who do DSCR? Or even people who are trying to buy properties with an LLC and are trying to figure out, like what lenders? Or trying to refinance a property that's in an LLC? So a lot of things like that. 1031 exchanges, like you know, how do I get started with that process? So there's a lot going on in there.

0:22:53 - Vikas Gupta

What are some of the questions around, or the difficulties around, financing within an LLC?

0:22:59 - Kendra Barnes

There's this huge misconception that when you buy your first rental property you have to buy it in an LLC. I think people want that ultimate protection and, first of all, this is not legal advice what I'm about to say. But while it's great if you can, people don't realize that you don't have to buy your first property in an LLC. And it's very hard to, especially if the LLC is brand new. It doesn't have any tax returns, doesn't have any income, so people think they can create this LLC today, go buy a property next week with that LLC from a traditional lender like their local bank, and it just doesn't work like that. So I think there's a lot of like questions around that. And then people are also trying to figure out, like, if I own a property in an LLC, like how can I do a HELOC? Or what banks do like HELOCs or cash out refis, you know, for LLCs and things like that.

0:23:53 - Vikas Gupta

So yeah, yeah, I can get tricky, I don't. Yeah, you sort of like see that generic advice of put your property in an LLC and then those blog articles don't quite cover all the downstream effects.

0:24:08 - Kendra Barnes

Yeah, it's not as easy as it sounds. I mean my husband and I. We started out buying in our personal names because we didn't have any business credit. We didn't like the LLC didn't have any money. I don't know who would have lent us any money, but I understand why people want to write for that like extra protection. But please consult with that financial advisor and consult with an attorney. Do your own due diligence.

0:24:35 - Vikas Gupta

So, yeah, no, nothing, nothing on this should be Construed as legal or an investment or accounting advice. Well, that's, I mean, that's, that's, I mean, I like, I said like I've been so impressed by that community that you've built and and and just the amount of activity, because sometimes you see a group with 6,000 people but it's like it's kind of like a passive group and no one's really posting, but there's so much action happening in that Facebook community.

0:25:04 - Kendra Barnes

And I've learned a lot just by lurking there. I guess and I'm also proud that there's like very little drama, because I've been in some Facebook groups where there's lots of spam and I try to keep it like spam free and like not sales, like even myself, like even though I've had products and courses, I try not to sell a lot in there either. I want to feel like a safe space where people can really learn and not feel like they're being constantly sold to. So yeah, it's been, it's been really fun.

0:25:31 - Vikas Gupta

Great, Well, we're coming up on time. But before we go into our closing questions, I do want to ask you you mentioned one major piece of advice you give people is make sure that it can pencil in 3 of those categories. What's like the number 2 piece of advice that you like to give people?

0:25:48 - Kendra Barnes

I would say if you are like the first person in your friend group or in your family to invest in real estate, sometimes it can feel like a little isolating. It can feel like people are projecting their fears on you and believe me, I get it, I've been there. I would say just keep going and let your success like be all the convincing they need, because it can be really, really hard when you're stepping out there and like doing these things for the first time. But there's a community out there. There are people out there who are right there in it with you and can support you and cheer you on. My family was the same way. They were just like you guys are crazy. What are y'all doing? Like you have good jobs and so, and now they're all like wait, how do I? What should I do about property now? Like can you help me?

0:26:36 - Vikas Gupta

I think that's. That's certainly, I think, one of the common themes we've heard of, just like like you got it, you got to do it. Don't let the fear of the unknown keep you from jumping in.

0:26:46 - Kendra Barnes

Got to. Yeah there's so many like courses and coaching that you can pay for, which I recommend like paying for the education if that's what you want to do, but there's nothing that's going to teach you like the experience, like get the education, take the action, and experience is going to teach you so much.

0:27:07 - Vikas Gupta

Fantastic. Well, if you're up for it, can we ask you our three standard closing questions? Okay, alright, question number one what is your favorite book, and it does not have to be real estate related.

0:27:21 - Kendra Barnes

Well, right now, okay, the Big Leap is honestly one of my favorite books, the Big Leap but right now I'm reading 10X is easier than 2X and that has just like, really transformed my thinking. So, like, in the moment, 10x is easier than 2X is really good.

0:27:41 - Vikas Gupta

How has that transformed your thinking?

0:27:45 - Kendra Barnes

Because it's like I think as a business owner, we can hold on to a lot of things that is no longer serving our business or our purpose or our passion, and it's transformed the way I'm thinking about, like how I started the key resource to help people to be a resource. I wanted to be the resource that I needed when I started, but a lot of things are like kind of dead weight in my business that aren't really. They're no longer getting me to like where I originally intended to go, and so it's just been really good and you can even apply it to just real estate investing. You don't even have to be like a e-commerce business owner, but, yeah, it's really good.

0:28:26 - Vikas Gupta

10x is easier than 2X, alright we'll make sure to dig up a link and stick it in the show notes. Okay, so question number two what is more important to you in real estate investing Cashflow or appreciation Cashflow? I like it Definitive, strong, right out of the gate. Can you tell us a little bit more, and why?

0:28:47 - Kendra Barnes

Okay, let me give you an example. So my husband and I bought a property, bought a condo in Baltimore a few years back. We bought it for $45,000. And when we looked at how much it appreciated over the years I think it was like over eight years that it only appreciated like $2,000, right, we bought it for $45,000. That was in 2017. Right now it's worth $50,000. Like it just, and it doesn't matter, we don't care, because the cash flow, we bought it cash and so it's just cash flowing from day one. We bought it with a tenant in it and we're like we do not care about appreciation, we're in this for the cash flow and it'll probably be worth $55,000.

Five years from now, we don't care, we don't care. So cash flow for us right now.

0:29:42 - Vikas Gupta

Oh, that's a fantastic example. Final question, final closing question. And I cheated because I asked you for your second piece of advice, so now I'm going to get a third piece of advice. What any other advice or insight that you want to leave our audience with that we didn't get a chance to cover?

0:30:00 - Kendra Barnes

Yes, I do. I'm glad you actually asked this because I think a lot of times on social media we look at what everyone else is doing and we compare ourselves to them and I do it too. I have a lot of real estate investor friends who I feel like are buying properties like every month and I have not bought a property in a couple of years and I'm like, oh my gosh, like am I not doing something right? Should I be doing more? But it's really important. It sounds so cliche but it's really important to start out setting a goal. Like don't invest in real estate because I invest in real estate, or because you heard this podcast. Like do it because it's going to get you to whatever goal you set.

So I recommend everyone set a specific money goal. If that's making an extra $500 a month, if it's retiring your mom, retiring yourself, paying off student loans, traveling the world, like whatever it is, and everyone's journey is going to look different based on their goals and where they're investing. For instance, if my goal was to make like $1,000 a month or, I don't know, $2,000 a month in rental income, that's going to look different in Washington DC than it does in Detroit. So an investor in Washington DC might only need one property. An investor in Detroit might need two or three. You know what I'm saying. You can't look at everyone else's journey and compare yourself. You got to figure out what your money goal is and buy properties that fit that Like. That's it.

0:31:21 - Vikas Gupta

I love it. Fantastic, great. Well, thank you so much. Before we let you go, where can our audience find you?

0:31:30 - Kendra Barnes

You guys can find me on Instagram at the key resource, and once you find me there, everything you need is right in the link in my bio. So if you've heard this podcast and you want to chat, send me a DM and I cannot wait to chat with you guys.

0:31:44 - Vikas Gupta

All right, thank you so much, kendra.

0:31:47 - Kendra Barnes

Thank you.

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